Hope this won't offend anyone, but in my modest opinion there are only three factors important to cancer survival: 1. Early detection. 2. Quality medical treatment. 3. Luck.

People who credit their positive attitude and determination get on my last nerve. Lots of people with good attitudes die. It's an insult to their families to boast about survival by our/my strong attitude/faith/etc. I'm living proof that you can survive cancer with a really bad attitude. The doctors, nurses, and technicians did all the work. All I did was mope and complain.

I especially differ with the 'God saved me' school. I don't believe there's a God who deliberates about whom to give cancer to, and then which ones to allow to survive. My stepson Jordan died in a car crash three and half years ago. When people survive car crashes and then credit God for saving them, does that mean God had no plans for Jordan? Or didn't care about Jordan?

I think if we boast that 'God had other plans for me' we are just insulting the families of cancer patients who did not survive.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

Ron,
I note your 'Humbug' entry was placed at 12.58 am on 17th December 2004. What a hair raising start to the day! Of course it does call for a response(s) which was, I am sure, your intent.

In respect of your three important cancer survival factors: Early detection; quality treatment; luck: these I tend to agree are vital but surely not the only ones. I cannot but think that, for example, a positive attitude helps considerably. This surely so in both sickness and health. I believe (caveat: I am no doctor) that negative attitudes can lead to overall depression and surely we know where that can lead to.

Beliefs: We all have our beliefs. I have expressed one in the previous paragraph. They are part of the human condition. While we may not agree with them we have learned in civilised society to respect others beliefs knowing, that in many cases, these are very comforting to them.

Boasting: Least said the better. Nobody has any truck with the idea of boasting about anything.

Ron, I believe a positive attitude is an overall helpful human condition. Also, any other beliefs (religious or otherwise) that a person genuinely holds that supports and comforts them while suffering is, to my mind, a wonderfully helpful thing.

Insults: a true insult must be intended. I cannot believe that a person overcome with gratitude (to whom finally?) at surviving cancer, is in their moments of euphoria, intend either on boasting or out to insult....surely they are just registering immense overall relief and a need to attribute their success to something or someone!

Finally, may I say how sorry I am at your loss of your stepson which clearly hurt you deeply.

Otherwise Ron, thank you for starting my day with a bang!
Regards, Fridge

Ron, I agree with most of your statement mate

Paul

I have read Ron's comments, and each one of us deals with illness in our own way; we are alone in our own heads, that very private world where no one else may enter; when I was at hospital yesterday, I saw how down some of the people were; I have tried to be as positive as I can, and have told myself that we have a healing energy within ourselves; everything in the body is made up of tubes and pipes, blood and fluids which must flow with ease, holding on to old grievances and old spent emotions, means somehow our bodies will pay the price; and I feel that many of my old ways have perhaps contributed to me being ill.

HI Garance, Old ways?
what do you mean?



Paul

Thanks to everyone for your kind and thoughtful responses.

A note about the time, remember I'm posting from California, USA time so I'm eight hours behind you Brits.

I suppose I have to concede that having a positive outlook has some beneficial effect. I was thinking about our presidential candidate John Kerry who made a big deal about being a prostate cancer survivor and said in interviews how he was 'just determined to beat it'. I thought, 'oh what a crock, the doctors got rid of your cancer, don't pretend to be such a damn hero.'

People's faith is a touchy subject, and I'm comfortable with 'my faith has been a great comfort to me during this trying time.' I just don't care for people who suggest they get some sort of special favors from God.

Maybe I'm just grouchier now that I CAN'T EAT!!!

Hi Paul, well had a great deal of anger towards my ex husband, who is a dentist has three dental surgeries and lives in a large house, and never paid for his son, I spent loads of money on court cases etc etc boring boring, well it took years of anger and I think that the throat thingy is a build up, i.e. tumours are festering anger pent up; well that's what I think, as things should flow in the body.
Ron, why are books written always called my fight with cancer etc; I think if we do scrape through, we have to use it as a learning curve; and do inlife what we really would like to before it is too late; I was sitting on the loo about 8 months ago in agony thinking what would you do if you won the lottory; the money would not take away the pain; next day I read an Irish woman had won, she had just found out she had throat cancer; I thought to myself well you have the answer, the money won't ease the pain, it will make her think of all the things she could have done if she was not lumbered with her throat problem.

Garance,

I suppose you're right about the fight with cancer. We go through the tortures of the damned, and we do have to take the initiative to show up for all the treatments and coordinate all the different professionals and keep them informed and make consents and make our own choices about drugs, etc.

Maybe its OK if we take a bit of credit. If people congratulate me on beating cancer I get sarcastic and say, 'oh yes I defeated the dread deadly disease. Here was my technique: roll up in a ball, moan in pain, and wish I were dead already. Doesn't sound like much, but it worked.'

Hi Garance & Ron, Wanted to reply privatly but cannot work out how.
Well a little of what I think

I belive we all have Cancer in us and mine came to a head with years of constant stress over a situation.

We will NEVER beat the Cancer it will finally get us in the end but personally willl give it a run for the money
I learnt early that was not lucky to be in remission and when people said "your so brave I envy you" I am NOT brave I had no choice in the matter whats brave about that I am a coward as I could not let myself just expire.

Have a good day guys

Paul

I've been looking at some old messages and this one caught my eye.

I think I'm in Rons court, I too have wondered about this constant talk of 'beating it' We are in the hands of the medical professionals who do a wonderful job in keeping us alive - but sometimes at what cost?

Immediately after my return home from hospital after surgery but before radiotherapy I woke up one morning thinking: it would have been better if I'd died on the slab I felt that my life was finished anyway - I couldn't eat properly or talk properly and my mouth was so dry, I couldn't even kiss my husband and as for sex - well he could forget that!!

But slowly slowly it has all improved, I no longer feel like that, but it has all been down to the medics nothing to do with me - I just did what they told me toook all the treatments and drugs that were offered and got through each day by sleeping - then I didn't have to think about it.

6 months later as I said things are so much better, by no means back to'normal' (though the sex part is nearly there!!)

I owe my recovery to all the healthcare people, my attitude depended on recovery process not the other way round and the human body is very tenacious.

Nice to talk

Rosie

Dear Rosie...

That was a very interesting series of posts you dug up. Wow!

As for me... I can totally see and understand both sides of this issue... (God's will/positive attitude did it... VS. medical science did it). I have certainly waged my own inner struggles with this topic. I have been angry before (beyond words!) with the God I've worshipped all my life... blamed, cursed and cried. I have been angry with my minister and others who remain so pompously steadfast in their beliefs... while mine waned miserably from time to time. I, too, have been quite annoyed myself by certain cancer survivors throughout the past year who attribute their remission ("cure") to prayer, God's divine intervention (guiding the minds/hands of the medical teams), and/or their own positive thinking. However, at the same time, I absolutely do not discount the idea that every one of the aforementioned "untangible" forces play a part too. I just don't know know to what degree... or why...exactly. It is human nature for some of us to put scary situations in the hands of God and make the conscious choice to leave things in His hands... because it's too HUGE for us and we have so little control. I am a believer (a Christian, if you will) and I pray for the people on this website... and I tell them to keep positive attitudes... and I want them to feel some simulence of control (under circumstances that make us feel as though our fates are wrecklessly out of our hands altogether). However, at the same time... I completely connect with the things that "L.A. Ron" was "screaming" in his 2004 posts. I, too, have known people (diagnosed about the same time as my husband in late '04) who went through treatment with impeccable positiveness and with their faith intact... all the way, trusting God in heaven and praying unceasingly... who are now six feet under today. So, in all honesty... I DO NOT KNOW. I will say that our faith (and having good people lay hands on us and pray with conviction in some of our darkest hours) probably kept us from succumbing to complete and destructive depression during Dan's cancer battle. (Being depressed can keep people from doing the things they should to aid medical providers in gearing them towards recovery and remission... like forcing PEG feedings, taking all medications as scheduled, etc. etc.) So, whether it was God/prayer/positive thinking... or soley medical science/luck behind Danny's cancer remission... I really don't care... but, get this now... I am thankful to GOD that he is still alive and scans show the cancer is gone!!! Go figure.... ??????

The subject is almost too deep for me this morning... but I just HAD to contribute Great topic, Rosie. Take care now.

Melanie

Rose although I no longer have the problem having had a medium return of saliva, I have mentioned this kissing problem several times to medics in the year after radiotherapy. No one seems interested in how being unable to kiss without constant sips of fluid affects quality of life in a relationship. They assume you should just be grateful to have gotten through the treatment. There is sensory arousal damage to the tongue that no one discusses. The only reason I can bring myself to discuss it now is because I have some of the saliva/arousal function back, but others may be less fortunate for 2 years or so.

A kiss which is more than a peck is a loving thing between two people and this is an area dismissed with a shrug and not addressed by H & N cancer experts.

Hi you gals i understand "darkness" and "light" my own wife is at this moment in hospital, not with cancer thankfully but emphysema and heart disease the latter equally life threatening. She has not my Faith and is frightened, the fear is causing depression, the depression is retarding recovery.

I disagree with Ron's original post albeit I see in later posts he does acknowldege a positive attitude does not hinder recovery.

It is precisely where full recovery is not an option I feel a positive attitude is most beneficial and an absolute acceptance that death comes to us all, it is just a matter of when so it is nothing to be scared of. Postiveness is inherent we either have it or we don't like Faith which gives in particular to those who believe a release from the fear of death.

I condemn no one who has neither postiveness in the face of adversity nor Faith for we are all different and positiveness and Faith is not a panacea for all the suffering we are likely to encounter in our journey through life. I do not say be positive you will survive, I say be positive it will make you feel better. Likewise I do not say consider Faith you will survive, I say consider whether or not Faith may give you comfort in your despair.

Diagnosis Cancer is the most traumatic change to lifestyle any of us will ever face, like it or not it will change the lives of those who are afflicted completely and it will equally affect all those who love us. But it is fact we learn to cope with or we add to the misery we suffer yes but also the suffering of those we love. You and I who are diagnosed with cancer our suffering is unavoidable but we need not let those we love suffer or at least not as much. Some will want to share the pain and take their part of the burden with us while others like my wife will ignore it. My wife said after my laryngectomy "I would rather die than go through that" and the true sadness is that I believed her. In my case I have survived 11 years to date that was worth the angiush of the surgery, radiotherapy and speech therapy. I can't make my wife see life my way and actually stopped trying about 20 years ago, now I try to feel what she is feeling and share her burden, there is nothing more that I can do. My wife does not intend to bring me down but that is frequently the effect of her moods and when I try to encourage I get a response not unlike Ron's original post.

Our physicians can only do what they are skilled at doing: excising the tumors with a knife, chemicals or radiation recovery even temporary recovery is down to the patient. I don't believe in luck or at least I believe luck is what you make it just as life is.

God be with us all and may whoever is reading this post come to know the infinite love of God which is real and tangible to a believer. My Faith is a personal relationship with Jesus, it is not my denomination, my Minsiter or my Fellowship the latter 3 represent the manner in which I choose to share my Faith publicly that is all. I feel better for it but if push came to shove were I entirely alone my Faith would survive without a denomination, Minister or Fellowship because Christ is with me today and will be for all my tomorrows howsoever few or many there will be. God be praised!

This has stirred up a hornets nest hasn't it!!

Being fairly new to this site I wanted to read back through old messages to see what sort of things are being talked about and there seems to be 2 camps those who have a strong and comforting belief in a god and some who are wondering if there is one.

Ithink that those who have their strong belief gain real strength from it.

I also wanted to mention what no one else seems to have done about keeping a physical relationship going whilst all this other stuff is going on around!!

My husband has been a wonderful supporter to me and I wanted to be able to show him how much I loved him as Pauline has said this side of things is never discussed - I suppose maybe it's considered trivial in the grand scheme of things - but it's not, also it's a sensitive subject to bring up but then so is death but we seem to manage to talk about that!!

Anyway I've said my piece maybe you gents could let us have your side of this discussion - should be interesting!!

Love to all

Rosie

HI Rose,

A physical relationship in a loving context is very important during any crisis. Obviously there are times when one just does not have the strength to participate but a loving touch is just as comforting. My wife found my stoma and neck breathing very difficult to come to terms with and it can be a real passion killer, but we have since (remember I have been a neck breather 11 years)overcome that obstacle. There is a new problem as my wife now has emphysema and heart disease which is a far more dibilatating condition than I suffer, but I can still satisfy without creating physical exhaustion: it just means that giving becomes more important than receiving in the act.

Yet for those who are not so fortunate no sex does not need to be a problem and certainly no excuse to find alternative sources of comfort. Partnerships can and will exist without physical intercourse if this is necessary, though I would never recommend celibacy unless it was unavoidable for love transends sex at every level and a cuddle and a kiss can be just as satisfying as an orgasm in the right circumstance.