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Picture of Dr Vinod K Joshi
Posted
Diagnosis and management of unknown primary tumour
quote:
NICE will shortly be setting up a guideline development group to develop a clinical guideline on ‘unknown primary tumours’. To date, only a few patient/carer organisations have registered as stakeholders.

Stakeholders will be notified about the stakeholder meeting, consultations on draft documents related to the guideline, and opportunities to apply for membership of the guideline development group.

Later in the year, a draft scope will be published for consultation, and during the consultation period, the stakeholder meeting will be held to discuss the likely content of the guideline. It is likely to cover two main areas:
  • The investigation of adults who are found to have metastases (spread of cancer) but in whom the primary site of the cancer is not known or not immediately obvious. This will probably involve recommending the most appropriate pathological and biochemical tests and imaging investigations.
  • The treatment of those in whom, even after appropriate investigation, the primary site is still unknown. This will probably involve recommending the most appropriate chemotherapy, hormone therapy and radiotherapy regimens.
Until the scope is drafted, it is difficult to be more specific about what the guideline will cover.


Head and neck cancers can present with the occult (hidden) primary never being found. This can be worrying to patients. Several of our members have had unknown primary tumours. The Mouth Cancer Foundation has therefore registered our interest in the development of this guideline.

I would be grateful to hear from members who were diagnosed as having an unknown primary tumour.


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Trev
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Hi Doc!
I don't know just what you want to know. I had excision of initial lump and it was a secondary, then removal of 'iffy' right tonsil which turned out to be OK. Then modified radical neck dissection where two more lymph nodes were found to be secondaries.
A PET/CT scan a month after surgery showed 'no masses' but 'greater uptake in both tonsils'. Still no primary.
Deb's concern (and mine) is that after I finish chemo and r/t, how will they determine the success or otherwise of all that I've had done? I still think they've got me mixed up with someone else!!
I'll be eager to hear what comes of this discussion
Trev
 
Posts: 234 | Location: Willaston Sth Australia Australia | Registered: 09 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Just a quick query on the subject of unknown primaries, Vinod. How common/uncommon is this?
Deborah
 
Posts: 334 | Location: Willaston, South Australia, Australia | Registered: 09 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Dr Vinod K Joshi
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Hello Deborah

I will be able to answer your question better after the guideline development group at NICE meets!

Meanwhile, you should find these articles helpful:
Metastatic Squamous Neck Cancer with Occult Primary (PDQ®): Treatment
Neck Cancer, Unknown Primary Site


Best wishes
Vinod Coffee


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Thank you Vinod.
I'm out of practice at reading all that jargon, however got the general gist of it all and frankly it has made me feel scared all over again. As I've said in an earlier post ~ I want to take my bat and ball and go home. I really don't like this game.
I/we look forward to further details.
Cheers
Deborah
 
Posts: 334 | Location: Willaston, South Australia, Australia | Registered: 09 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Dr Vinod K Joshi
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The Mouth Cancer Foundation has been invited to a meeting for the Unknown Primary Cancer Guideline development.
  • A representative of the National Collaborating Centre for Cancer will present the draft scope.
  • NICE staff will outline the guideline development process, stakeholder input into the guideline, the processes of recruitment to the Guideline Development Group and evidence submission.


The date for the meeting is Friday 15 February 2008. The meeting will start at 2pm (with refreshments from 1.30pm) and is expected to last until 4pm.

Representation is limited to two people per organisation. The Mouth Cancer Foundation represents the interests of patients and/or carers. We would like to ensure that at least one of our representatives is a patient who has had the experience of being treated for an Unknown Primary Tumour in the head and neck area. It is an opportunity to ensure that issues of concern are considered for inclusion in the scope. Please note that although NICE will reimburse reasonable 2nd class travel costs and subsistence costs, it is unable to cover loss of earnings or locum costs.

Please contact me through the private message facilty if you have any comments you wish to raise or are interested in attending.

Best wishes

Vinod
--
Dr Vinod K Joshi
BDS(Singapore) DRDRCS(Edinburgh) FDSRCPS(Glasgow) FDSRCS(England)
Founder and Chief Executive
Mouth Cancer Foundation


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi Dr Joshi
We would love to have feedback from this event if possible.
I'm sure that everyone here has a certain degree of anxiety in relation to a return of their cancer and as happy as we are with Trevor's progress, we both acknowledge a fear that it is still lurking somewhere since the primary source of Trevor's cancer was unknown. It would be lovely to have some before and after shots of a dead or shrinking tumour.
Cheers
Deborah
 
Posts: 334 | Location: Willaston, South Australia, Australia | Registered: 09 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi Doctor Joshi,
Could you give details of where the meeting takes place please.

Tony K.
 
Posts: 41 | Location: leicester | Registered: 25 May 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hi Tony

The meeting is at Towers Perrin, 71 High Holborn, London, WC1V6NA.

Best wishes
Vinod Coffee


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Picture of Dr Vinod K Joshi
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Join the guideline development group for metastatic malignant disease of unknown primary origin
(Closes 3 March)
quote:
Applications wanted for patient & carer members on this clinical guideline development group
The Patient and Public Involvement Programme and the National Collaborating Centre for Cancer are looking for applications from patients and/or carers to sit on the group developing a clinical guideline for metastatic malignant disease of unknown primary origin. It is likely that the guideline will look at tests and imaging investigations in people who are found to have metastases (spread of cancer) but in whom the primary site of the cancer is not known or not immediately obvious, and will consider treatment of people in whom, even after appropriate investigation, the primary site of the cancer is still unknown.

Patient/carer members of this group will play a key role in making sure that patients’ views, experiences and interests (and those of their carers) inform the guideline's development and its recommendations to the NHS.

All members of Guideline Development Groups have equal status, which reflects the relevance and importance of their different expertise and experience. They include health professionals and researchers as well as patient and carer members. All Group members need to attend regular meetings and undertake background reading.

We would welcome an application from you if you have:
  • experience or knowledge of metastatic cancer of unknown primary origin, for example, as someone
    - who has had this themselves or
    - who is the relative or carer of someone who has had it or
    - who is a policy officer from a relevant patient organisation
  • an understanding of, and a willingness to reflect, the experiences and needs of a wider network of relevant patients (perhaps as a member of a support group or patient organisation)
  • time to commit to the work of the group: attending meetings, background reading, commenting on draft products etc.
  • good communication and team working skills

Health professionals will be well represented on the group so we are looking for someone without a health professional background.

Patient members of Guideline Development Groups are paid an attendance fee and travel expenses are also reimbursed. The Patient and Public Involvement Programme will provide patient/carer members with dedicated and ongoing support throughout their time on the Group.

For further information about what the role involves and other relevant information please use the link below:
Applications wanted for patient & carer members on this clinical guideline development group


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hello Dr Joshi
Were any members of the MCF able to take part in this group? What were/are the outcomes? Shame we're so far away.
Cheers
Deborah
 
Posts: 334 | Location: Willaston, South Australia, Australia | Registered: 09 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Hello Deborah

Unfortunately, I could find none who could attend. It also clashed with the Nationa Cancer Survivorship Workshop that a number of members went to.

Will post any news about the outcome when it becomes available.

Best wishes
Vinod Coffee


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Posted Hide Post
Thanks Dr Joshi
Mostly I don't even think about Trevor's cancer and sometimes I do and can't believe that the last year unfolded as it did and then there are those fleeting moments when I just wish we had seen a picture of that primary ~ before and after surgery and treatment! Where is/was the damn thing?
Never mind, I'll look forward to any 'unknown' news.
Cheers
Deborah
 
Posts: 334 | Location: Willaston, South Australia, Australia | Registered: 09 July 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Management of the unknown primary carcinoma: long-term follow-up on a negative PET scan and negative panendoscopy.
Head Neck. 2008 Jan;30(1):28-34
Miller FR, Karnad AB, Eng T, Hussey DH, Stan McGuff H, Otto RA.
Department of Otolaryngology-HNS, University of Texas Health Science Center San Antonio, 7703 Floyd Curl Dr., San Antonio, Texas 78229.
quote:


BACKGROUND: The unknown primary carcinoma in the head and neck has been estimated to represent up to 7% of all head and neck carcinomas. In an attempt to identify the occult primary tumor the evaluation of this patient population has included a complete head and neck examination, flexible fiberoptic endoscopy, and imaging with CT/MRI. More recently, positron emission tomography (PET) has been advocated as a tool to detect primary tumors.
METHODS: A cohort of 31 patients with fine-needle aspiration biopsy-confirmed squamous cell carcinoma were prospectively entered into a diagnostic protocol to identify the occult primary tumor. The diagnostic protocol included a comprehensive head and neck examination (including flexible endoscopy) and CT and/or MRI. If the initial diagnostic evaluation failed to identify a primary tumor, the patients then underwent whole body PET imaging followed by staging endoscopy with biopsy of the at-risk occult tumor sites. The outcome measures included the accuracy of the PET to predict the presence of occult tumor at staging endoscopy and the accuracy of the negative PET and negative panendoscopy in predicting the subsequent development of a primary tumor in the upper aerodigestive tract during follow-up.
RESULTS: The PET detected 9 occult primary tumors in the 31 patients (detection rate, 29%). Five occult primary tumors (2 base of tongue and 3 palatine tonsil) were detected during panendoscopy despite a negative PET. The combination of PET and panendoscopy detected 45.2% of the unknown primary tumors. Seventeen patients (N1, n = 7; N2a, n = 4; N2b, n = 2; N3, n = 4) had no primary tumor detected and were treated as an unknown primary carcinoma with primary neck dissection +/- radiation therapy +/- chemotherapy. In this series of 17 patients, there were 3 neck recurrences (17.6%). In addition, only 1 patient (5.8%) developed a primary tumor of the upper aerodigestive tract with a mean follow-up of 31.1 months (range, 21-60 months).
CONCLUSION: A negative PET study in patients with an occult primary head and neck carcinoma does not preclude the need for panendoscopy with biopsy to detect the occult primary tumor. The risk of subsequent primary tumor appears to be low in the patients with a negative PET and a negative panendoscopy (<6%).

Copyright (c) 2007 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.


Disclaimer: Please see your own dentist/doctor for a proper diagnosis as my words should not, in any circumstances, be taken as dental/medical advice.

"If you see what is small as it sees itself, and accept what is weak for what strength it has, and use what is dim for the light it gives, then all will go well. This is called Acting Naturally."
Lao-Tsu, Tao Teh King
 
Posts: 2889 | Location: St Luke's Hospital, Bradford and Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield | Registered: 14 December 2002Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Maybe I am a bit late to enter this thread as it's been a while since any post so my experiences may be too late now anyway.


My secondary was found (lump to side of neck) and after 3 FNA test found to be malignant but no sign of primary.

I then had MRI scan with no result followed by a combined pet/ct scan which resulted in no primary found.

I was being treated under the barts MDT. At their next meeting they recommended removal of both tonsils as the most likely site of the primary. Although as far as i know they did no tests (fna etc) to the tonsil.

Fortunately for me the tonsil, or one of them at least turned out to be the primary.


WAS I JUST LUCKY in this outcome, certainly i no longer have the worry no primary and for that i am very grateful.
 
Posts: 22 | Location: Berkhamsted, Herts | Registered: 27 April 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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